Excerpts from the discussion, to be discussed. Schäuble's interview, in the NEA weekend, has direct references to Greece.
When Greece entered the process of signing the third memorandum, Wolfgang Schäuble was its Finance Minister Germany, and directly involved in the "measures" that had to be taken for Greece's infamous debt. Today, Schäuble declares that he has a clear conscience, as he had his attention focused "on the good of Greece", as he says.
Schäuble's interview was given to NEA over the weekend, and here are some highlights:
Mr. Schäuble, the reason for this interview is the fact that Greece is coming out of the enhanced supervision of the Commission next August, leaving the traumatic decade of the debt crisis behind for good. How does this prospect make you feel?
I don't share your euphoria. The crisis has not been definitively overcome – especially in the light of current conditions. But what is true is: Greece achieved a lot! And this shows that the work done was not wasted. We had to demand a lot from Greece, but above all Greece had to demand a lot from itself. The price for the internal devaluation, which Greece had to suffer, is very heavy for the Greek citizens. But this was a decision of the Greeks and not of other Europeans.
Many Greeks have the opposite opinion, that they were decisions of the powerful finance minister in the Eurogroup. That is, yours.
Yes I know it. But the one who hurt the Greeks the most – as the then president of the Eurogroup wrote about that time – was a Greek finance minister, not a German.
…you mean Varoufakis…
...the problem was that Greece joined the eurozone under the wrong conditions. Giorgos Papakonstantinou (s.s.: former finance minister) described it precisely. But in Greece they later said that the culprits are in Brussels and Berlin. This is what one has to live with. Actually, I always wanted to help Greece – and we have helped Greece a lot. I have a clear conscience and I believe that many in Greece have realized this. In the Eurozone we are now facing new, bigger challenges and I have certainly found that Greece is no longer at the center of attention. This shows that the reforms that Greece had to make took place. Not everything is good, but a lot has gotten better.
When did you realize the full extent of the Greek crisis? From the beginning of the crisis, Chancellor Merkel and her government were already criticized for not reacting in time, because they waited for the elections in North Rhine-Westphalia.
From the beginning, I was the one who wanted to help Greece. But it was not possible to the extent I would have liked, both within the then CDU/CSU-FDP government coalition and within the framework of German law, which left the finance minister limited room for maneuver on decisions in the Eurogroup. The impressions from a specific situation can be so different.
What is the picture today?
I already said it: We are faced in the eurozone with new, big challenges. But Greece additionally faces the fact that Turkey is trying to use strategically – in a brutal way – the influence it gained with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This is not new. But we must do everything to ensure the principle that borders should not be changed unilaterally by military means. We Germans after the disaster of two World Wars learned our lesson – first with France and then with Poland and the Czech Republic: We are no longer fighting for borders, we are uniting Europe.
Greece's problem is that it does not have Denmark as a neighbor, but Turkey and Erdogan, who questions the sovereignty of an EU member state.
And a NATO country! It is currently a difficult situation due to the aforementioned global political conditions. That is why it is good that the Greek government and the Prime Minister are reacting with restraint. I had met Kyriakos Mitsotakis as a minister in the Samaras government. Since then I noticed that he was a very constructive minister – so I have always appreciated him.
Back to the crisis 10 years back. 2012 was the year of the second program for Greece. He brought about the haircut of the Greek debt, the largest in history. Nevertheless, it was communicatively forgotten. Why;
This is true. I fought from the beginning for a cut of the debt, and it had to be passed in the face of massive resistance, mainly from the ECB. In the end it was a 52% haircut, but only for private, not public, creditors. And that was a problem.
The second program with cutting the debt was agreed with the then minister Evangelos Venizelos. How was your relationship?
I remember Venizelos very well, we got on well, in my opinion he made every effort for Greece. But I told him very early on: Basically you have two options: Either you entrust the responsibility of decisions to others, or you leave the euro for a while and we will help you, we will not leave you alone. Venizelos rejected both, for respectable reasons. But the price Greece had to pay was high.
You had early on the idea of the temporary exit of Greece from the euro, which you proposed in the crucial 2015, and you had discussed it at the infamous dinner with Evangelos Venizelos in Wroclaw, Poland in September 2011.
The discussion had taken place earlier in Berlin. He was the new finance minister, there were four of us, I had with me the deputy minister Jörg Asmussen, I don't remember who was with Venizelos...
...Georgos Zanias...
... maybe, I don't do so well with Greek names (laughs). The restaurant was good, but Venizelos was not particularly interested in the food. We talked all night very openly. The results are known. My goal and pursuit has always been to help. I did not want to harm Greece and the Greeks. Many Greeks told me: "We know that you are not our problem, they made you a scapegoat." But one has to put up with this in politics.
July is a fateful month for Greece. Now in July 2022 we are talking about the end of surveillance and the Memoranda, but in July 2015 Greece was on the brink. How close was he then to exiting the euro, to Grexit?
This was suggested by the large majority of finance ministers in the Eurogroup. And you also know that in Greece some argued that it is better for the country. But it did not pass the Council of Heads of State and Government for well-considered reasons. Then, by announcing new elections, Tsipras took a courageous step and again obtained a majority for the opposite policy, from the one with which he was elected. His contribution was remarkable, which facilitated the successor government in forming the basis for the stabilization of Greece. This deserves recognition.
From today's perspective, what would you do differently in the management of the Greek crisis?
I continue to take the view that those responsible for economic, fiscal and social policy must take the necessary decisions for fiscal stability and sustainable growth. This is the condition for social justice. Greece did not meet these conditions when it entered the eurozone. Because in the Eurozone we have a common currency, but differentiated national policies, we had to apply the principle of prerequisites in the crisis – this was of course considered external intervention.
Are you afraid of a new debt crisis today due to the consequences of the pandemic and the war in Ukraine?
This cannot be ruled out for now, especially since the eurozone cannot benefit from the dynamics and stability of the German economy as it did in the previous decade.
Mr. Schäuble, you are a "child of the Cold War", born in 1942, in World War II. How do you experience the outbreak of war in Ukraine, in the center of Europe? Putin invaded Ukraine and the ΝΑΤΟ increases tenfold to 300.000 the troops in the rapid response force. Are they harbingers of a World War III?
Given Putin's aggressive behavior, boosting NATO strength is the right way to make it clear that we are determined to credibly defend the values of our own liberal democracies.
Europe today is under double pressure: Politically and militarily from Russia, economically from China. Can it withstand this systemic challenge?
We are stronger only when we want to be. Liberal democracies are superior to dictatorships. Soviet Communism had to build a Wall in Berlin. Here where we are right now was the Wall. Not because we threatened the Soviet Union, but because the world did not want to live in a dictatorship. We didn't have to build Walls to keep the world out. If we in the free world focus on our own comparative advantages, we can win this confrontation without an irresponsible escalation.
Did you ever think that Germany would completely cut ties with Russia?
No, I hoped that wouldn't happen again. In the Cold War, the "absence of war" was based on the deterrence of mutual neutralization and mutual destruction. It wasn't particularly comfortable, but it worked. After the German unification in 1990 we thought we no longer needed these, but we forgot the Roman saying: Si vis pacem para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war). Germany is surrounded by friends, but not Europe. And now we must all work, in the interest of all, to ensure that no violence is used to achieve the goals.
Should I take this as a self-criticism about the attitude of German policy towards Putin until the invasion of Ukraine?
The German political leadership made mistakes. I made it clear, already as a member of the Merkel government, that I do not think it is right to build the Nord Stream 2 pipeline against the reservations of all European partners and the USA. If we want a united and effective Europe, we too must coordinate with others in decision-making.
Finally, a personal question: You, a politician to the bone who until now was almost omnipotent, how do you manage the fact that from the front line you had to retreat to the rear?
Only God is almighty (laughs), but this is politics and one has to accept it. Politics in democracy is the possibility of shaping reality with an expiration date. Everything ends at some point. In 2017 I had decided to retire from the government and was then for four years the president of the Federal Parliament. Now I am an ordinary member of parliament again. That's how I started.
THE NEWS weekend, source https://in.gr , photos:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/ German politican – Bundestagsbüro Wolfgang Schäuble, MdB
